User talk:Ygrain
Loghain Is it just me or does talking to Celsis in that Loghain topic feel like we'd be more productive talking to a brick wall?--Madasamadthing (talk) 01:11, March 18, 2012 (UTC) :Worse. It feels like talking to Loghain's alterego - equally apt at making up excuses without really accepting the blame. I remember quite a couple of interesting discussions about Loghain but none was ever so frustrating, I really feel offended by some arguments. - If you'd like to discuss Loghain over here, I'll make a separate section, this page is getting too huge for comfortable editing. --Ygrain (talk) 06:10, March 18, 2012 (UTC) :: You could try archiving it and moving on to another talk page. (No idea how to do it, but it's an idea.) --''--Isolationistmagi'' 06:58, March 18, 2012 (UTC) :::Done, with outside help :-) --Ygrain (talk) 18:57, March 18, 2012 (UTC) Thing is, I really do feel that there was nothing that Loghain could have said that justified anything he did. And he was a dead man walking. Almost everything he did would have resulted in a death sentence, and I'm pretty sure they would have enforced each sentence. Like I said over on the other thread, the Warden or Alistair executing him at the Landsmeet was a small mercy compared to what he would have suffered.--Madasamadthing (talk) 15:15, March 18, 2012 (UTC) :Sometimes, these things at least get a free pass when some success is achieved - which was not Loghain's case. In fact, had he charged at Ostagar as he was supposed to and died there, Ferelden may have been better off. :It rather scared me to realize that towards the end of the game, the Warden may become as ruthless as Loghain.--Ygrain (talk) 18:57, March 18, 2012 (UTC) ::Yes, the Warden could become as ruthless as Loghain, but can it be that in the Warden's case, the outcome of their decisions does justifies the means, stopping the Blight? The Warden does have to make some hard decisions in order to raise an army fast enough to stop the Blight and save Ferelden. But with Loghain, everything he did weakened Ferelden and left it wide open to be destroyed. Allowing Uldred to the Circle to ferment rebellion? Deprived Ferelden of its most powerful weapon. His stubbornness in giving up the regency resulted in far too many deaths of troops, farmers and civilians which meant that there wasn't much of an army left to defend Ferelden and a means to feed it. The Warden and Loghain are two sides of the same coin, both wish to unite the country, but the means one side uses will eventually destroy it, while the other side tries to repair the damage before it is permanent. --Madasamadthing (talk) 19:24, March 18, 2012 (UTC) I believe that Ferelden would be the better for it, because the whole civil war would have never started because Ferelden would have a well respected and well loved ruler and, even if Eamon wanted Theirin blood on the throne, Alistair could and would claim warden neutrality and hide behind that because the only thing he seemed to hate more than being King was letting Loghain rule. --''--Isolationistmagi'' 19:18, March 18, 2012 (UTC) Isn't it peculiar that in his self-entitled powermadness, Loghain ended up treating his fellow Fereldans the same as Orlaisians did? When discussing his crimes, it usually boils down to Ostagar and slavery, with an occasional shout-out about Highever, but what really scares me are those casual pieces of information one learns from Bodahn and inkeepers etc. - people burned in their homes, starved to death... all in the name of being the one to save Ferelden. --Ygrain (talk) 19:35, March 18, 2012 (UTC) :I noticed that pretty much during my second playthrough and its a thought that solidified through subsequent playthroughs. Like the Nietzsche quote says, if you fight monsters long enough, you will become one. For all his belief that he was saving Ferelden, all Loghain was doing was copying everything the Chevaliers did during the Orlesian occupation. Nothing justifies the burning of families in their homes, that is the worst possible way to die, its meant to inspire fear and terror, to paraphrase Varel, its a "terribly Orlesian thing to do" --Madasamadthing (talk) 19:47, March 18, 2012 (UTC) ::That's a really fitting quote. ::BTW, is it just me, or should a profound apology be a part of acknowledging one's mistakes? He really wronged and harmed the Warden and Alistair, not to mention a couple of other people, and the fact that he felt it had to be done, IMHO, does not exclude saying "I'm sorry". - If Loghain can ever feel such a thing, that is, or is it just his pride that's getting in the way? In the scenes I watched on youtube, he seems rather haughty when dealing with the Warden, and it really irritates me.--Ygrain (talk) 16:11, March 19, 2012 (UTC) :::I think if Loghain ever did say "I'm sorry" it'd be more for "I'm sorry you stopped me." rather than "I'm sorry my actions resulted in the death of so many innocent people." The thing is, any apology he might make would ring hollow considering all the things he did, nothing can make up for regicide, murder, attempted murder and torture. In my opinion, Loghain's pride is the problem, that he was the hero of the rebellion, a war that ended 30 years ago. But thats the problem, his pride means that the war didn't end, and he is still fighting it 30 years later. The darkspawn aren't the enemy, its the Orlesians. --Madasamadthing (talk) 16:39, March 19, 2012 (UTC) ::::Well, as a sign of remorse, an apology should do. At least to the Warden. The closest Loghain ever gets to acknowledging he did something wrong is, I think, that "I have much to atone for" before he goes for the Archdemon, which is a bit late. Does he ever express any doubts over the course of action he took? 'Cause, I remembered this saying - not sure where it really comes from, I know it from one of Sapkowski's Witcher stories - "only evil never doubts", and lots of things Loghain did were definitely evil. It may be just his pride that he doesn't show what he really thinks or feels, but that certainly doesn't make him more endearing to me. --Ygrain (talk) 17:02, March 19, 2012 (UTC) ::::: "Allow me to do just one last thing right," is the line I remember. But it was very late and, all things considered, it struck me that all he was trying to do was redeem his name in the quickest way he could find. I couldn't respect that, so I sacrificed the warden to ensure he would atone properly. (Sorry about that Nalia, but we both know you would have done it anyway.) --''--Isolationistmagi'' 17:05, March 19, 2012 (UTC) ::::::Precisely why I could never take him seriously after sparing him that one time. A reputation takes a lifetime to build, but a moment to destroy it. It shouldn't be easy to restore it, it should take time, effort and a genuine desire, taking the "easy" route would simply result in more problems later on, which you had just proven to Loghain at the landsmeet (And in my playthrough when Aedan died I hit the reload to the Landsmeet and chopped Loghain's head off before send the Warden to Morrigan's chamber). --Madasamadthing (talk) 17:26, March 19, 2012 (UTC) ::::::Just one more reason to do the right thing, no? ;-) - Is there actually a line to let him know that you are letting him live just as a punishment? ::::::Reputation is a peculiar thing. I took quite some care to arrange my canon playthrough of the Landsmeet in a way that destroyed Loghain's reputation via Anora's proclamation, and, as you can guess, no redemption for him. ::::::On a side note: it never ceases to amaze me how many fanfic writers apparently consider Loghain a misunderstood romantic hero and pair him with Fem!Cousland. Yuck.--Ygrain (talk) 17:40, March 19, 2012 (UTC) ::::::: When he says "Allow me the chance to do one last thing right" you can say "No.You'll atone the hard way." --''--Isolationistmagi'' 18:03, March 19, 2012 (UTC) Bit late to the party, but thanks for directing me here. The main thread about Loghain was getting a tad unwieldy. And yeah, that Celsis person seems to have a way to just avoid answering questions and sticking to their guns that Loghain was misunderstood. Back to the topic, that's right, I remember that "atone the hard way" response. Wasn't that right before going for the kill on the Archdemon? Does he actually listen to that, or does he charge anyway, like Alistair? Nilfalasiel (talk) 11:14, March 20, 2012 (UTC) :Welcome :-) :I couldn't resist and had one more say in the thread, since Celsis really has a way to get on my nerves. I think we all understand where Loghain comes from - it is just that we decided not to go there. Understanding, IMHO, does not, and should not, equal absolution. --Ygrain (talk) 12:05, March 20, 2012 (UTC) :: I'm not sure whether or not Loghain overrides the warden's decision under any circumstance, but I've only done two playthroughs in which he actually survived the landsmeet, so I'm not the best source. But in the playthrough I did do, the warden went straight for the kill after that sentence. Strange thing is, if Loghain had overriden the warden's decision, that might have won a couple more points in his favour. On the Celsis topic, I won't fault them for what they think of Loghain, but something about them was causing my brain to short circuit by the end of that thread. --''--Isolationistmagi'' 16:03, March 20, 2012 (UTC) :::Heh, I have to agree with you there. I've had to stop myself from posting in the thread because I know Celsis is going to annoy me to the point where I'm going to rant and I won't be able to stop myself. Truth is though, is there anything Loghain could actually do to redeem himself? If he doesn't die at the Landsmeet or against the Archdemon, he will always be remembered as a man who killed a king and plunged the country in civil war. No matter how many people he recruits into the Grey Wardens he will still have that stigma hanging over him. --Madasamadthing (talk) 16:13, March 20, 2012 (UTC) :::: I'm not prepared to say he absolutely cannot redeeem himself because I like to believe that all people have that chance. As for what said redemption would be, I have absolutely no idea, though am certain that killing the archdemon is just the quick way out for him, and serving the wardens is not nearly enough. --''--Isolationistmagi'' 16:22, March 20, 2012 (UTC) :::::I think you're right - he would really like to get out of it ASAP. And, though he certainly has more redeemable qualities than, say, Howe, I still prefer the quick way with him, as well. :::::I _really_ have to keep away from the thread - one more Loghain justifier. Oh, he is sorry, he says he made a huge mistake - now, that's an understatement of the year. Yeah, he endangered all of Ferelden by a totally wrong estimate of the situation - but that's still something I could forgive. It's the means he used that bothers me: the man committed atrocities, and all he can say to that is "I made a mistake?" The same for "he couldn't have known the Wardens were so important" - sure. After four centuries without darkspawn, I can understand such scepticism. However, he knew perfectly well that the Warden and Alistair had no part in Cailan's death, yet he outlawed them, hunted and tortured. Why does this get constantly overlooked? - I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it's really frustrating. :::::BTW, if Loghain did intend to keep Cailan alive, how could he ever expect that Cailan would agree to quitting the battlefield and abandoning the Wardens? What if Cailan refused to follow Loghain's reasoning and ordered to charge? No matter how I look at it, I still come to the conclusion that Cailan was never supposed to survive Ostagar.--Ygrain (talk) 17:20, March 20, 2012 (UTC) ::::::What better way to cover a murder than in the middle of a battle? --Madasamadthing (talk) 19:02, March 20, 2012 (UTC) :::::::That's actually my reading of the precautions that we learn from Elric - Cailan did not expect the battle to be lost, but he was afraid that he might have "an accident". In this light, sticking to the Wardens as the most skilled fighters on the battlefield is not such a dumb idea. --Ygrain (talk) 08:36, March 21, 2012 (UTC) Though by the same token Cailan kind of negates this by putting both himself and the wardens on the front lines. One can only wonder what would have happened if Cailan and Loghain's places had been exchanged. While I don't think the battle would have gone any differently, there certainly wouldn't have been a civil war. --''--Isolationistmagi'' 11:32, March 21, 2012 (UTC) :Whatever way you look at it, Cailan was a lot cannier than a lot of people gave him credit for, especially the fans. One could see his decision to stand with the Wardens as a final insult to Loghain. If he wanted Cailan dead, he'd have to make the effort (too bad he didn't consider Loghain's forces "falling back" or that Ogre to develop a case of the "Ooh shinies").--Madasamadthing (talk) 18:48, March 21, 2012 (UTC) Re:archive Sure, simply create a page called User talk:Ygrain/Archive 1 (or simply Archive...or anything you want really), and cut and paste all the discussions on your proper talk page into the archive. If you want to put an archive box on your talk page afterwards, this is the code: Hope that helped. 11:34, March 18, 2012 (UTC) Re:my blogs? Hey, D-day managed to answer your problem before I go to it, but this solution she gave should work: "This is something with the Wikia's servers. You need to purge the page in order to see the list correctly. You can do it by clicking here (it is done by adding &action=purge to a page). I've done it recently so it should appear correctly. Although you can't see the purge button on Monobook for the blog list, you can it as a gadget for other pages if there are any problems for other pages. --'D.' (talk · ) 16:30, March 18, 2012 (UTC)" And it's never a bother, by the way 20:20, March 18, 2012 (UTC) Re:publishing long works Well, there's no guideline against it and I personally don't have any issue at all, so feel free. As always, I look forward to reading it 18:16, March 21, 2012 (UTC)